Massimo Pagliaroli | Stageworthy

Massimo Pagliaroli is a graduate of York University’s Directing program and has been working as an actor, writer and director for over fifteen years. Playwriting credits include Cheapskate (a winner in the 2005 Toronto Fringe New Play competition) Happy Together and Young Couple in Love. His current project, Inch of Your Life, was workshoped in Toronto and received it’s U.S premiere at Edgemar Theatre in Santa Monica, California. He is a co-founder of The Theatre Circuit and currently serves as it’s Artistic Director.

Instagram: massimillions

Massimo Pagliaroli’s INCH OF YOUR LIFE: EPISODE 1 was the comedy hit of 2016’s Toronto Fringe Festival, receiving the coveted “Patron’s Pick”. INCH OF YOUR LIFE: THE TRILOGY stars eight of Toronto’s rising stage stars: Luis Fernandes; Antonino Pruiti; Alex Clay; Ceridwen Kingstone; Giovanna Pandullo; Brandon Knox; Jonathan Sconza; and Jack Everett.

The performance dates for INCH OF YOUR LIFE: THE TRILOGY are:

Episode 1/The Pilot – March 7-17, 2018 – *MARCH 8th OPENING*
Episode 2/The Middle Part – May 9-19, 2018 – *MAY 10th OPENING*
Episode 3/The Last Bit – July 18-28, 2018 – *JULY 19th OPENING*

Tickets for INCH OF YOUR LIFE: Episode 1/The Pilot are on sale TODAY at www.artsboxoffice.ca

The Theatre Circuit was created with the intention of producing work that celebrates and highlights the artistic diversity of Toronto; cultivating an artistic hub in which to nurture, support, and promote Toronto-based theatre artists; fostering a community in which emerging, established, and returning theatre artists can connect and develop fruitful creative partnerships; and, engaging and entertaining the people of Toronto while attracting broader audiences to support local theatre productions.

Also as part of its first season is THE LAST PERFORMANCE by Hole in the Wall Productions starring Jonathan Sconza & Steven Vlahos and directed by Ceridwen Kingstone.

The Theatre Circuit is comprised of founding members Massimo Pagliaroli (Artistic Director) and Carlo Vitelli (Managing Director), and Susan Lock, Alex Clay, Ceridwen Kingstone, Jonathan Sconza, Steven Vlahos & Andrea Healey (Resident Artists & Associate Producers).

www.thetheatrecircuit.com
@theatrecircuit

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Transcript

Welcome to episode 116 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.

If you haven’t subscribed to the podcast, I’d like to remind you that subscribing is the best way to make sure that you never miss an episode of Stageworthy. And there are some great episodes coming up, so trust me when I tell you that you don’t want to miss them. So make sure that you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Music, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to get every new episode of Stageworthy delivered right to your device.

If you want to drop me a line, you can find Stageworthy on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at stageworthypod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. And if you want to drop me a line, you can find me on Instagram and Twitter at philrickaby, and my website is philrickaby.com. My guest is the Artistic Director of the Theatre Circuit and playwright Massimo Pagliaroli. The Theatre Circuit is presenting Massimo’s Inch of Your Life Trilogy with Part 1 opening March 8th at Theatre Passe Muraille Backspace in Toronto. So this project that you’re working on sounds pretty epic, actually.

Oh god, does it? I mean, look, I see it, and I see Part 1 in March, and then I see Part 2 a couple months later. What is this that you’re doing? Well, what is this that we’re doing? I don’t know. I don’t know.

Years and years ago, a friend of mine had a space in Kensington, and I was sort of, I was toying with this little idea of this little episodic kind of show where it’s sort of, you know, every month or so we have this core, you know, group of characters, and we have every month you come and see a new installment. And I’m like, that’s a little crazy because of terms of schedules and all that kind of stuff. So we started just making it in sort of, like, actual episodes that every few months we would do.

So it was very, very casual, very, very, like, you know, rehearse on the whim and then put up, and it done in a cabaret space with drinks and all that kind of stuff. So it was very, like, comedy review kind of idea. And then afterwards, it was, we refined it a bit, sort of cleaned it up, really put things to paper.

And we got as far as, like, four episodes, let’s say. And then a friend of a friend came to see that show, and she was living in Los Angeles at the time. And she said, there’s a really interesting project, would you be interested in doing it over at Edgemar in Santa Monica? I’m like, okay, sure, why not? Let’s go.

No, absolutely not. Why would I do that? Get out. Yeah.

So that was, I think that was the first time it was sort of, like, really refined and chiseled down into a play form kind of thing. And so we did it there. And it did very, very well.

And then I stopped doing it for a long time. I actually left theatre and said, I’m not gonna do this anymore. I’m like, you know, I’m gonna grow up and be serious and do that kind of thing.

And then, you know, a couple of years ago, I submitted to The Fringe, and I got in and we did a little test of that show. And I’m like, I kind of, this is an itch I haven’t finished scratching. I really want to do this, but I want to do it and finish it.

I want to do it as a trilogy, and designed to be sort of like a sitcom on stage. It’s sort of like a show that we, we call it, we dub it a show for like the Netflix generation, because it’s episodic, it’s fast paced, it’s it borrows heavily from, you know, sitcom style and sketch comedy review. And that’s it.

So it’s basically three episodes that are one whole, and, you know, leaves the possibility open for a possible, I don’t know, prequel or, you know, like doing the whole Star Wars thing. Let’s say, let’s go before there’s all this little universe we’ve, you know, created, and we can, you know, go back and forth and add to it if we wanted, but I just wanted to get that initial trilogy out of my head and finished. And so that’s the end.

It coincided with us sort of starting our theatre company. So we thought this is our inaugural season. Let’s just, let’s do this.

You said that you gave up theatre and decided that you were going to grow up. Yeah. Yeah.

What, what prompted that and what was your growing up? What did you try to do? Okay. Well, it’s very strange actually, because it’s funny because this actually ties in to the show, but I mean, I don’t know, I guess I turned 30 and I was, you know, surrounded by family and friends, all of the Italian background who were like getting married and having kids and buying houses and having jobs. And I’m like, I write plays and I do that.

And it was just, you know, I guess I was sort of really thinking that, oh, that’s what I should be doing. I should be sort of like planning some roots and thinking about getting older and taking care of myself. And I was just miserable during all that time.

You know what I mean? I started a little business with my cousin and, you know, it was like, we had a little like cafe kind of thing and up in Brampton, like, you know, just so far from, you know, anything that, uh, that I’m familiar with or that, uh, and, and yeah, I’m just, it, the fringe, the 2016 fringe was me literally going back saying, you know what universe, I’m going to try this one more time. And if I get into this festival, then I’m going to take that as a sign to keep going. So that’s what happened.

The number of people. So 30 is a, is a, is an age where you start to. It was weird.

And it was, it was the weirdest thing. Cause I’m like, oh, I should really like, I should stop doing this. And I was doing well.

Like, I mean, I was, you know, working and all that kind of stuff. It was just, maybe it got a little hard and I was like, you know, yeah, I think I’m going to stop. I, I had that at 20, like I, that journey of like, no, I’m going to stop started for me at 27, like a crisis from 27 to 31, where I just sort of was, uh, trying to figure out, oh, do I want to do this? And you start to think to yourself, okay.

So I’m getting to the point where maybe I want a place of my own. Maybe I would like to afford, I don’t know, a computer and a TV and, you know, some things instead of like my little black and white TV, you know, sort of think like that. And then you’re like, okay, so maybe that seems good.

But you know, most people that I speak to who’ve done that, it doesn’t take. No, but the thing is though, cause I didn’t want those things. I’m like, I don’t want to get married and I don’t want the house.

I don’t want those things. So I was just really like, I was really torn between, you really like, like went for the completely wrong reasons. I’m like, I wanted, like, I should have what these people have.

Well, just because I thought like, well, if this is me at 30 without any of these things, what am I gonna be like at 50 without any of these things? That’s where I went. And I’m like, maybe I should sort of, you know, lay down some roots and kind of really think about, I don’t know, who’s going to, you know, take care of my teeth when I’m 60, like, you know what I mean? Like, how’s that going to happen? So do you know what I’m saying? So, so that’s, that’s what it was. And, and there was never any pressure for my family ever.

It was all sort of that, you know, looking around and saying, Oh, is this what I should be doing? Cause everybody that I went to theatre school also, you know, with, they, they were sort of getting married off and not doing it anymore. So I’m like, am I like, it was, I felt kind of like really like alone, you know, I’m thinking about the people from when I was at school, still doing it, you know, as we all approach over 40. And there’s very few who are still doing it.

It’s not easy. It’s not, you know, and you, you start to balance out the, you know, do I want to want to make a below poverty? Do I want this? Is there something else I can do? And sometimes people pick up a high, a side hustle that ends up being their main hustle. Yeah.

And I don’t blame them. Hey, that, and that’s, I get it. Especially if you have children, you know, and I completely understand for me, it was just after that, like seven, eight years, I’m like, you know what? I looked at the alternative and it just wasn’t appealing anymore.

I’m like, I’ve been up for eight years, like 70 years. Yeah. And I, yeah.

And let me tell you something, getting back into it, getting back into it, whatever, but I, it’s just, I feel so behind, you know what I mean? I feel like I’m, I’m trying to play catch up, you know what I mean? And, and I I’m kind of excited because it’s, you know, it’s come at a time, um, you know, in the advent of like all the indie theatre, really, really rising and all that stuff. I just feel I, it was a good time. Yeah.

No, I mean, uh, I, how long did I live for three, four years? Maybe. See, that’s what I should have done. That’s what I should have done.

But then, but then even then, like you come back and you’re not quite in it, you do a couple of things and I spent even longer not writing. I would say I’m a writer and I would, I wouldn’t write. And then when I had the opportunity to write, like I did, like, uh, I did red sandcastles, a thousand monkeys just like open the floodgates and I was like, Oh, this is what it feels like.

So it was like, like actually really good. But it’s, it’s hard to, to, to feel like you’re going back because once you say like, Oh no, I’m giving it up. Yeah.

Tell people that you’re giving it up. The thing is, I don’t think I, there was, there was this like declaration. It’s funny that I’m going on with you said it was that idea that I kept saying to people, Oh, I’m an actor.

I’m going to write. I’m like, but I wasn’t doing any of it. And it bothered me because I’m like, well then, then why am I working this job? If this is what I should be doing? You know what I mean? And that’s, it was, it was, it was a really ate away at me until I finally made the decision to sort of like, you know, yeah.

It doesn’t take for a lot of people. I mean, it didn’t take for Danny McIver, for example, who made a big deal of doing his farewell tour. Yeah.

His farewell, like performing all of his solo shows and then moving off to, to, to the Maritimes to settle down and then he’s back at it because it’s hard to give up. Yeah. It’s the bug, man.

It’s yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s yeah. It went and that’s the thing. It’s, it’s, it never, I knew that I would, it would bother me for the rest of my life.

If I just didn’t say at least I, I went this, this time now I’m sort of taking it seriously, but I’m not taking myself as seriously. And I think that just comes with age. Yeah.

I’m sort of for lack of a better word, hungrier for it now, but for the right reasons. Oh, because you, you, you didn’t have it for a while. Yeah.

Yeah. And when you give it up, it’s like, I think if you go from, from, if you were like doing theatre in high school and then you went to theatre school and then you graduate and you start to do it, don’t know how much you need it because you’ve never not done it. Yeah.

Oh, that’s just a bag. Yeah. That’s all good.

I don’t know. Is there anything in your bag? Did it? Yeah. Okay.

Nothing. Okay. It’s a work computer.

Who needs that? No, an exact, that’s the thing coming to it now at this age, I just, I’m, I’m, I’m happier now. I’m sort of in a better place to do it and it’s because I want to do it and I’m, I’m not, yeah, I don’t, I don’t think 22 year old Massimo is, is the same as, you know, Massimo today. Sure.

I mean, well, no, no, no. And yeah, he was, he was, I think a little cooler, but I mean, the thing is, yeah, I, for me, I’m just, I’m happier doing it now and I know why I’m doing it now. Okay.

Yeah. What was your show in the 2016 print? It was, it was interview life, episode one. We kind of did like a little test of it to see, cause it was my first thing back in like seven years and felt really rusty doing that.

I didn’t get into that one. We, no, no, we did very well. Like it was great.

It was, that was why we sort of decided to sort of revamp the show completely and do it as the full trilogy. Sure. Yeah.

Cause it was sort of, we got an interesting response and yeah, we thought we would just do it, do it the whole thing. What did you learn from frames doing it? Is there anything in particular that I learned that, Oh God, that you, the theatre, the directing stuff and the writing stuff is like any other kind of like muscle you need to work it, I think often as you can. Cause I felt really rusty.

I remember being in rehearsal going, I really hope no one can see through the fact that I don’t know what I’m talking about right now, you know? And I mean, it all comes back to you, but it was just really, I’m more confident now directing this incarnation. Now that I sort of got that out of my system and I felt bad at, I remember at times working with the actors and just thinking, I’m like, I don’t think I’m giving them anything. I don’t think that I’m doing my job, you know? But yeah, I also realized that I work well under pressure too.

That was, yeah. Well, Fringe does put a lot of pressure on you. Yeah.

We weren’t like, we were very organized, but it was just like when it comes down to the wire, it’s like, you know, it’s a cast of eight, you know, plus there’s all these other like dates and times and you’re just, you know, navigating this whole operation. But it’s, yeah, it was, it was a good, very good experience. Good.

Yeah. We wouldn’t be here. I think if we didn’t have that, we wouldn’t be here.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Cause Fringe, when it gets down to the wire, you suddenly realize all the things that you, you think you’re in good shape. And then all of a sudden there’s like, to do this, is this, do this. And that’s when you realize that, oh, nope, didn’t do that.

And now it’s a scramble. Yeah. I, the thing is I thoroughly love being in the Fringe because the only time, I mean, I did it last year, sorry, two years ago.

The only other time I did it was 2005. And we had a great year and a great run and I’ve always wanted to see shows and things like that, but this was my first time in a long time, but we felt really, really welcome. Really, really, I felt really at home at there.

Yeah. I like, I like the festival very much. I really, I really enjoy Fringe.

I mean, I just, I love the, the crapshootness of it. Yeah. Me too.

That you don’t know what’s going to be good. What’s going to be bad. You know, you can just go and like take a risk on something and maybe see something magic.

And it’s amazing how, how, how it has been like the springboard for so many big productions, you know? I mean, I mean, In’s Choice, you know, Kim’s Convenience. I went to school with In’s and I just remember like seeing the progression of that, you know what I mean? It’s, it’s amazing. And like Drowsy Chaperone and like how there, you know, it can really, really, you know, blow up your show.

Things, things can. Absolutely. Things can happen.

With like small shows that have like parlayed it into, you know, tours and things like that. So it can really. Absolutely.

I think that’s why it’s great. Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Because it’s a way to produce. That doesn’t mean that you’re paying however much you’re paying. Oh my God.

Absolutely. Like $900 to like, sort of like to do your whole, it’s fantastic. It’s a great, safe sort of, you know, comfortable way to do it.

Sure. Yeah. And instead of like having to spend like who knows how much on a venue, plus advertising, plus all this stuff.

You’re never going to get that kind of word of mouth outside of a festival. Yeah. What theatre school did you go to? I went to York.

York? Yeah. How, how were you in the, in the writing stream or? No, I was in the directing stream. Okay.

It’s funny because I actually, it’s very funny how that happened because I actually went to York to become an actor and then ended up going through the directing stream and then started writing after I graduated. So it’s very, it’s, and it’s funny cause I guess everybody always forgets about me as an actor because I’ve done more directing and writing than anything else. Sure.

But the program has really changed too since when I was there. It was very, very streamed when I was there. Your first year is very generic and your general, it’s your, you do kind of do everything.

And then in second year you, you stream into either acting, directing, production, playwriting and theatre studies. Sure. So, and you reapply kind of every year.

There’s sort of like a, you know, you have to get over the hurdle every year to get in. And, um, I think it’s changed quite a lot since I’ve been there because I’ve spoken to recent graduates. I don’t even think there’s an undergraduate directing program anymore.

I don’t even know if that’s there. Yeah. So it’s changed quite a bit.

I think all the programs change. Yeah. I mean, they have to.

Yeah. If otherwise they become obsolete. From what I understand, there is like an acting stream.

Then there’s like a creative ensemble. Like they, it’s. Yeah.

I know that there’s like a collective creation thing that you can do. Yeah. As well.

Cause when I was there, it was like acting and that’s it. Like if you were an actor, that was it, you know, there was none of that other stuff going on. And so I’ve just like, it’s, it’s been a while, like it’s been a while since I’ve been in school.

So. Yeah. And slowly now I’m seeing, uh, if I look at some of them curious about how theatre schools are changing and I’ll look and see, you know, what are they offering? And slowly now we’re starting to see production, like self-production as a, as something, because when I was at theatre school, self-production was something they were like, you know, well, if you don’t make them, I guess you could self-produce.

You could do a solo show or do the fringe. That was very secondary. Absolutely.

Right. Like it was sort of like they had a, like running your theatre company course, but it was sort of like this really weird, don’t have to take it elective. Whereas now it’s, you know, I, especially in the college programs, like some of the actors that I have, they’re working with in the show right now, uh, they have specific classes, courses, hours devoted to managing yourself and promoting yourself in this industry.

Whereas we didn’t, I don’t think we had that as in-depth as they do now. No, we had, I went to George Brown, we had a business of acting course. Yeah.

Why I went there. It was one of the reasons I went there. Um, but now I think it’s even more about like, they’ll do, cause now they’re acknowledging the need to self-produce.

Some of it was never really a thing. Yeah. Cause we were being prepared to go to Stratford or Shaw.

Yeah. That sort of thing. And there wasn’t a, you know, part of your career is producing your own stuff.

Um, did you choose York for a particular reason? I was just, as you were like about to ask me that question, I was thinking about how George, I would have preferred, I think a college program. I don’t regret any of my schooling cause I loved it. And I, I really enjoyed my education, but I remember being one of three OAC students.

Remember OAC? Yeah. Yeah. That’s, yeah.

That’s how far back we’re going back there. Um, but I remember like that back then there was like the streaming as well in high school. There was like sort of like, you know, the three streams, if you were the advanced stream, you automatically went to like university.

That’s what you’re sort of like, you know, geared towards. Oh yes, yes. Do you remember that? There was, uh, the advanced, there was the general basic.

Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is you could still go to like college if you were in the advanced program, but it’s really funny because I remember like being one, literally a three.

It was me, Mark and Loretta, the three of us. And we’re like out of a graduating class of 200 Italians from Woodbridge, we’re all like, you know, we’re going to apply to theatre. We want to do this.

And you know, our guidance counselors were like, okay, well clearly you’re, you know, that you’re going to go to university cause this is where you’re streaming into. And I’m like, okay, well what university programs do I, I have looked at and like, so York was one of them, but not once did anyone say to me, do you know that like George Brown and there’s all these other options for theatre schools that are more geared towards like the business sort of, you know, sort of like, um, side of it kind of thing, really like finding work in the city and you know, that your guidance counselor, like I’ve heard certain people go to their guidance counselor and the guidance counselor is like, oh, you don’t want to do theatre. They, I don’t think they even knew what to say to us because they were just like, you don’t want to study business.

I was like, okay. Yeah. It was very strange that you don’t want to get your BA in English.

You don’t want to study business. You don’t want to like what I don’t understand. And I thought to myself, I’m like, if I was a guidance counselor and someone came up to me and say something like, oh, I want to do theatre.

I’m like, you know what? Let me see what’s out there because we never get this kind of request. I don’t know. I did not know there was a national theatre school.

No, I didn’t know that. No. And they obviously, they were so blindsided by it.

You’re probably like one of like three people every like five years who’s ever said, I want to do theatre. I think the following year there was one person who was like, I’m going into theatre. And they never know what to do with that.

You know, it’s like they’re, they think they’re preparing you to go be scientists, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, that stuff. It was almost like theatre. And then there was like a pause, like where the crickets would be, you know what I mean? And, and I was, yeah, it was really, and my, I remember like, you know, my, one of my colleagues actually did, you know, leave the program after a couple of years, uh, the other finished the program, but then went into education.

Um, but at the end of the day, like it really was only a very small, very insignificant number from this huge graduating class. I just felt it was, I was very, um, what’s the word? Not misguided. I don’t want to say that, but I just wish I had known there were more options.

Sure. You know? And they, your guidance counselor just is unprepared for that. Yeah.

Yeah. Because they’re not prepared. They just, they, they didn’t even, they didn’t even say, have you looked at, like it was causally an option.

It was like, well, clearly you’re in this stream. So you’re going to go do, you know, the, the university route. I think that even if somebody was not in that stream, they wouldn’t have known what to do.

They wouldn’t have been, they wouldn’t have said their courses at college. They just wouldn’t have known what to do with that. Yeah.

I found out after, I mean, don’t like, York had a great program. Ryerson had a great program. They had great programs at the university level.

Yeah. But I would have liked to have had sort of, you know, a real array to choose from and be like, well, this is the best tailor to what I want to get out of the program. Your university program is not going to prepare you.

They’re going to prepare you to be an actor. Yeah. To act.

But in no way, do you know anything about the business when you get out? It was very minimal. You know, you graduate and you’re like, have fun. Yeah.

It was like, yeah, that’s what it was. We were sort of like set a sale. And don’t get me wrong.

I mean, there were the professors there and the, you know, the instructors there were very good. The actors, I think, got it more than the directors did. The actors, I think, had more exposure opportunity where people came in to see them or they would do showcases at Terragon and so that they had that.

But as a director, what are you going to do other than working with, you know, the, you know, who could then, you know, sort of, I don’t know, put your name out there. You can’t, nobody can see your directing work. Exactly.

Especially when you’re an AD and like, you’re not really directing anything. And if they do see your directing work, you’ve kind of done it wrong. Right.

You know? Right. So it’s hard to be, to parlay the directing into getting seen. Yeah.

Which is sad. And it’s weird because, you know, usually it’s the directors who try to do their own work too. I just wish there was more of that.

Sure. You know what I mean? Don’t get me wrong. Like dissecting the scenes, all that stuff.

Great. Yeah. You know, I had great instructors.

I really, really, you know, had a fantastic time in York, but then you leave and you’re like, oh, okay. Now what? Yeah. That’s how I felt.

Yeah. Of course. That’s how I felt.

I don’t think that’s uncommon. I mean. I think it’s very common, but I think that now I think they’ve, they’ve sort of incorporated that into the curriculum where it’s like, okay, here’s what happens or things you should think about, or you’re at least armed with some information as to where to go.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, cause you know, going, going through the, the, the college, the conservatory system, it’s pretty intense.

Like it’s theatre from like eight o’clock in the morning until nine o’clock at night. And then you go home and you dream about theatre. And on the weekends you like study theatre.

Yeah. I spent all of my weekends at the reference library. Me too.

Yeah. The actors again, had it more, the actors and the production students, like the Russians were up all, they never slept because they were doing their courses, but also, you know, producing the shows and building the shows. The actors had classes from like eight till six and then rehearsal.

Yeah. The directors who had a bit more sort of flexibility, but it was a lot of sort of like you, you had to rehearse, you had to plan your own rehearsals, whereas if the department didn’t plan that for you, like you had to do all that shit. Yeah.

Yeah. So, but I had a great time. I don’t, I don’t say it to like put down, you know, you are, cause I actually had a fantastic education.

When did you start doing theatre? Like legitimately? No, like, like even, even public school counts. Oh, as a kid, I remember like, I was, it was, oh God, I’ll never forget. I, there was, I mean, it was like, I was like to do like skits and things like that.

Like at recess, I remember like pulling classmates and doing stuff like that. And then asking the teacher to perform at the end of the day. They were horrible, of course, just little things that we put up, but like, or like, you know, we would mimic things we saw on television.

Um, I took my, I think my first acting class at six and it was by a lady who had dropped off some flyers at the elementary school. And I went home and I said, mom, I need to do this. And I remember it was at Albion library, like in Rexdale where we, where I grew up.

And, and so I was like, you know, dead set on doing it, but it was only from like seven to like 12 was the age range. And so my mother dragged me to the library and pulled the lady and said, you have to take my son because he’s driving me crazy. Like, please let him take this class.

And, uh, and, and that was it after that it was, you know, um, what I was, and it was funny because I never got to play the plum rolls in like in, in, in elementary school, you know what I mean? I never got to do those things. I was always sort of like the, you know, we did this big production of even this French production of Little Red Riding Hood. And I, I, I didn’t get to be the wolf or the woodcutter or anybody like the person I really wanted.

I was like, so I’m like, I will do it. I will do it. And I had to be like one of the little bunnies, you know what I mean? Singing in the back, which is great.

But at the same time, it was like, you know, I never got the chance to really show what I could do. And I don’t know if that’s what was the driving force, but you’re like, I’m going to do this. When I got to high school, it was a whole other world because the drama department was actually really, um, promoted and taken care of.

Like we had a fantastic principal who was very, very much about supporting the arts. Yeah. So it was actually the, the, the two ladies who ran the department were, were, you know, the, we had, we did things all year.

So I really felt like, Oh my God. Okay. I’m getting to do stuff.

And that’s when I started directing. Cause we had student directed when I plays and you know, that kind of stuff. So that was, I think where I was like, it’s solidified for me.

I’m going to do this. But I think it’s early. Yeah.

Since I was a kid, when you found that flyer and you were like, I have to do this, did you have any con concept of what that, what it was you were asking for? I just saw it’s at acting classes and it had like a picture of a clown. And like, you know, it was at the Albion library and I’m like, it’s what I want. I’m like acting.

I want it. I want to do that. I want to, I want to be, you know, cause I remember seeing like the great eights putting on plays and being on stage and I’m like, I want to do that.

I want to be up there saying stuff and performing and dressing up and, you know, all that, whatever that means. So you had seen something. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, and you know, and I remember like, you know, watching Sesame street and, and, and, and, you know, performing in front of the television and then performing it for my grandparents.

I always liked performing and being, I never felt shy being in front of people. Right. Um, I don’t know.

It was just that thing. It was just that thing. I wanted to do it.

Yeah. And in high school you were doing some, some fun stuff. And then at what point did you decide that this is it? This is all I want to do.

I think in high school it was like, this is, I think when I was like, I was like, you know, yeah, I’m going to, I want to, you want to be, you know, on TV and things like that. But I think where I was like, you know what? I want to be an actor was high school. Yeah.

And, uh, is there a certain point where you realized that this was going to be the thing that you would do? Like, cause you know, some people, they think they’d want to be an actor and then, but you know, they’ll also become a teacher. No, I, I never, I mean, yeah, at the back of your mind, there’s always that whole, I should have my backup plan and I never did it. And I was like, Oh, that’s kind of dangerous.

You know, mass, maybe you should really, but then I’m like, no, I’m like, I’m going to do it. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I was, I was, I was very excited, but also terrified.

Like when I applied for university, I was very, I’m like, okay, now I’m really doing it. You know, did you apply to the one school or were there other schools? Um, there were other schools, but it’s really funny because I actually had auditions for other schools and I just decided not to go to them because I wanted to go to York. Okay.

I saw a production of, as you like it, when I, in, in my last year of high school, I want to go see the productions of the universities that I was looking at. And it was, as you like it directed by Jeffrey Highland. And it just, it took my breath away.

I’d never seen anything like that. It was a beautiful production and I’m like, I want to go here. I want to go here.

I want to do what they were doing. And yeah, that was it. I mentioned it in my little interview at York and that’s what sealed the deal.

And this is what got me in because I told them that in my interview and they were all like, Ooh, you came on your own. That’s kind of cool. Um, not a class trip.

So I would think I scored some points there because my audition was horrible. So, um, yeah, it was really bad. Another thing, that’s another thing too.

It’s like, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t know about all the, you know, the canon of plays out there. Like the, you know, the Canadian stuff and all the good stuff and it’s what they teach you in school. So I had really bad choices for me.

How could you, like, I think we all did when we auditioned for theatre school. Like, yeah, what do you know? Like, you don’t know shit. But yeah, I picked up like what I picked up a book of Shakespeare monologues and a book of, uh, modern monologues.

So I could have like one modern and one, one classical. And I learned one of each and I, the Shakespeare was no problem. But I, then I don’t, I can’t be, this is going to go on.

This is being recorded now. I did Tom from what did I know about playing Tom from Glass Menagerie at like 17 years old. I’m like, I could say this, I can memorize this in like a day.

So that’s what it was. And it was awful. Of course.

I mean, I mean, what do we, I mean, we go to learn. Yeah. And so I think that they probably at theatre school auditions see a ton of bad choices and they have to decide who, like who has something that they can work with.

Like what are the choices show that there’s something that you can build on. And I think I chose Glass Menagerie because I had to read it for school and I had it at home. Sure.

Do you know what I mean? And it wasn’t until I got to, you know, first year where you’re reading all the Canadian stuff and all the American stuff. And all of a sudden the world just opened and I’m like, there’s, there’s, there’s so much out there that I just didn’t know. Cause what do you read in high school? You read Shakespeare and then you read a little bit of Oscar Wilde and a little bit of Oscar Wilde.

If you’re lucky, like there was Oscar Wilde and Arthur Miller and Tennessee Williams. That’s what you read. Yes, of course.

Because you have to do that for the salesman. It’s like the question of like, why are we teaching theatre like plays as literature? If there’s any way to make, to make kids hate the theatre, it’s like to force them to read and, and analyze Shakespeare and Arthur Miller and Oscar Wilde. Like don’t read them.

It’s just the worst possible thing. I did. I, on that note though, I will say that I remember in grade 12, I had a great teacher and I, and she made me love Death of a Salesman because it wasn’t just like, oh, we’re going to, you know, analyze it to death.

Like we read it and we performed it and it’s like, okay, it just, she chose for the others, the performance aspect of it, you know, and what it would be like performing it, not just what it’s saying. Um, so I was lucky that way. Yeah.

I was taught Shakespeare by a woman who clearly had not read the play that we were. Is that the best? Yeah. That’s the best.

And she would try to tell us about how perfect the language was and how perfect the symbolism was. And there were no contradictions. They were like, you did not read this.

Yeah. Yeah. You have a little manual.

Yeah. Do your desk. Yeah.

You’ve been told what you think you want to say and whatever. Yeah. You know, we did, I remember grade nine was Julius Caesar.

Oh, so they were still doing plays that were not the main. Well, then they changed to midsummer, which I thought was a sort of like a more fun entry point to Shakespeare. You know what I mean? Um, because the Julius Caesar for, you know, 14 year olds was pretty, it was like, wow.

Okay. Julius Caesar is a tough one. Yeah.

There are some tough ones that they’ve heard people say that, you know, we’re doing Othello. Yeah. Yeah.

Othello was later, but I remember it was Julius Caesar for the longest time than they did midsummer. And I’m like, we didn’t get that. We did like, and then, you know, even Romeo and Juliet would have been a good starter one.

You know? Sure. But I mean, I think now I, maybe it’s changed, but for a while there, it was like, there’s just a midsummer, Mackers and Hamlet and just cycle through. We did Lear.

We did Lear and OAC. God, I feel really old when I say that. I know, whenever you, whenever.

Oh, I know. Because no one gets it. I’m like, OAC, they’re like, what are you talking about? What is OAC? Yeah.

There was a time, children, when there was a period between grade 13 and now. Yeah. It’s called OAC.

Ontario Academic Credit. I remember that. Yeah.

I remember like, all the people who left after grade 12 and they already started their post-secondary. And I’m like, I got one more year. Yeah.

You know? Well, then there’s the people who were in the double cohort year. Yeah. Which was like, when they had to do the, the people who were finishing their OACs, the people who were not.

Yeah. Equal, but. But not, yeah.

But not, yeah. No, yeah. Yeah.

That’s so funny. I’ve got, the reminiscing about this is, it’s really, yeah. When you, you started writing, you said after theatre school.

I actually started writing, like, I mean, the first thing I ever wrote and put up was at York. And the reason I started writing in the first place is because, you know, as a performer, I’m like, you know, I’m not going to wait to get a role. I’m going to write myself a role.

I was really, you know, the one man show was the big thing, you know? And every time I started writing one man show, a second character showed up and I’m like, you know, and then because it’s mine, I’m like, I want to direct it. So the first thing I ever did was a little one act play that York had a, a sort of, a little two, it was called Playground. So they would, people would submit and it could be a reading.

It could be anything from like five minutes to 30 minutes. And they chose, you know, each night had a different program. So it ran in reps.

So Playground A ran for four performances. Playground B ran for four performances and it was alternated. And that was it.

I submitted, I got in and then I, we did this little play and that was the first time where I handed words that I wrote to actors and they were like, okay, we’ll say this. And I’m like, okay, okay, that’s good. All right.

So it wasn’t like, yeah, mass, we’re not going to do this. It was, it was, it was, it was, it was a real gift. So it gave me the confidence to write again, which ended up being that friend show.

Sure. Now you, you were mentioning the one man show and how everything was about the one man. Yeah.

Well, had you seen something that made that? Well, I remember when we had to do monologues in, I didn’t know what one man, I didn’t know what that was a one person show. I didn’t know what that was. We didn’t study those in high school, but then when you got to university, it was, you know, Dianne Flax and Daniel McIver and, um, um, what’s his name? Garnum, Andy Garnum.

Andy Garnum. It was, there were so many being done. I remember there was even a publication called Solo that was, you know, full of one at one person shows.

And so that was a thing, you know, and I remember like in playground, there were people like doing them themselves. Yeah. And when my friends mounted stuff at the little theatres within the university, they did one person shows and it was just something I wanted to do.

I still haven’t done it, believe it or not. I wanted to do it as soon as I read, uh, uh, Daniel McIver, uh, Wild Abandon. And then I read, then I read House and I was like, Oh, you can do even longer.

Like you can, you can do this. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. Cause Wild Abandon, that was when we had to do monologues, people, that’s where people would pick from. Wild Abandon and Seabob Run, those were huge.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it’s gold.

It’s great material. Yeah. It’s just me.

It’s just me. I don’t got to share any of that. It was, it was a very, it really could show what you did.

Sure. Yeah. And then, and then, you know, Fringe, like now it’s like the explosion of one person shows and, and, uh, almost sometimes the backlash against one person shows.

I know people who were like, I just can’t see anymore. One person show. You know what? I guess, I don’t know.

I, I do like them. The last thing I saw Daniel McIver do was, was, Oh, I think it was cul-de-sac or monster or monster that we’re talking years ago that I saw. Monster.

And then there was, uh, this is, there was another one that was anyway. Yeah. But the thing is, and I hadn’t seen one in a really long time until this past, uh, past year at the Fringe.

Uh, my friend had one and I, I loved it. I forgot how much I really like when they’re well done. They’re wonderful.

Well, that’s the thing when they’re really well done. Yeah. Just like you could just get swept up.

Absolutely. She took me on the ride and I had such a great time and I was like, yeah, yeah. I, I just, I remembered how much I liked doing them one day, one day.

I mean, you saw, you saw Daniel McIver perform one. So I’ve seen him do twice. Okay.

Yeah. So I’m do monster and I saw him do cul-de-sac. Okay.

Those are the, I’ve seen him perform twice. I saw, I saw, I went to see in his farewell tour. I went to see him do house.

Yeah. And it was like, it was so magical to watch him perform that. Yeah.

And it was even watching that. I didn’t realize until I, until I was trying to perform my own solo play that I realized how important the audience was. Because I had never considered about how important the audience was.

He opened my eyes to that too, because my final, I guess, thesis, if you will, for my fourth year, I did this as a play by Daniel McIver. And, and he, he taught me that it’s, it’s, he taught me exactly what you said. It’s like, it’s our responsibilities to them, but we can also use them.

It’s, it’s a whole, that whole communal thing. And, and yeah, it’s always stuck with me even now, like with what we’re doing now, like with the, it’s just, the audience plays a huge part. I don’t know.

He, he opened my eyes to the possibilities of what you could do with that. Yeah. And why you’re doing that.

Well, I mean, that’s another important question. The why. Yeah.

And the who, because I, when I was doing mine and my director said, okay, so, so, you know, you’re seeing partners, the audience, you’re going to make eye contact. I was like, what, what, what, what? Yeah. And once he said that, I was like, oh, of course I’m going to have to do that.

And doing that the first time was like one of the most terrifying things I ever did. After that, like the realization that, oh, without that, it would be me talking at them, which is not engaging, but talking to them is a more gratifying experience for everybody. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s, I’m just thinking back about that show. That was, that was, God, that was a long time ago.

As a director, now that you’re directing, you know, you’re, now you’re directing this trilogy of your own work. First off, how does it feel like directing your own work? Is there, do you find it difficult to divide the writer from the director? Sometimes. I think that one thing I need to do at some point very, very soon is to write something and let someone else direct it.

Have you done that before? No, no, it’s never happened because I’ve only written like a handful of things. And I’ve always, because I’ve been very clear about how I want it to look and sound. And I’ve been very precious about it that way where I’m like, only I need to sort of realize this whole vision.

And so, so I’ve, I’ve always directed stuff that I’ve written. So I really, really need to, I think I really should write something and hand it over. I think I need to let someone else sort of like take the reins.

And does this work? Like to really work with them is be like, is this work in tandem with the director? That would definitely be a very interesting experience. Yeah, I want to do it. It has to happen.

Because it’s so easy to, when you can direct it, but then to see somebody else to like interpret. That’s what I mean. That’s what I mean.

I need to sort of see like, what, what do you get from this? Yeah. Yeah. It’s hard.

It’s something that’s hard to let go, you know, not just as a writer, but as a performer, like I’ve performed something that’s, that a few things that are like open enough to interpretation that the audience can have their own opinion of what happened. And at a certain point you want to be like, no, no, no, no, no, but this is what’s actually happening. And then you have to finally accept that, oh wait, this is how, what it is for them.

And that’s as valid as what I think it is. Yeah. I took a writing intensive with Paula Wing at Terragon about a year and a half ago.

And it was all that where it was like, she goes, I don’t want anything about it. Just bring your pages in, say who you want to read. And I’m like, so with like no direction whatsoever, like they’re just going to read it with like nothing.

And it was a real eye opener. Cause I’m like, that didn’t make any sense. They’re like, this did not come across.

Whereas it was a real, it was a very, very helpful exercise because it’s like on paper, you think it makes perfect sense. Sure. Do you give it to people who know nothing about it? Like this doesn’t work.

Well, that’s because, that’s because, you know, when it’s in your head, you understand all that. Absolutely. I’m like, you don’t get it on the paper.

Yeah. I’m like, you didn’t say it like that. It was very, very, very interesting.

Yeah. And sometimes painful because you’re sort of like, you know, it’s very cut and dry. They’re like, this isn’t coming across.

But then you realize you’re like, okay, that’s beneficial. Yeah. And it’s really helpful to do that.

I find with the things that I’ve written, have somebody just sit down and read it and not tell them. I do that so much more now. I never used to like, I never, I now, especially I’m just like, can I give you guys some pages? I need to hear it.

Sure. I need to hear it and be honest. Don’t tell me that.

Yeah. Because that’s the old, like, if they don’t understand it, then you really understand that there’s something missing. Yeah.

Yeah. I’m all about that. I’m all about like, please come over.

I’ll bring, I’ll have wine. Let’s just read these pages. Do me the favor.

Yeah. I do that a lot more now. I think before, before I was too scared, you know, in my youth, just like, you know, and being very, very protective of it.

I was like, no. I mean, I acknowledge the fact that it’s a vulnerable thing to give something that you have created to someone else to read. Yeah.

So you want to make sure that they understand. Yeah. I’m doing air quotes.

No, no, no. I’m, I, yeah, my hand, my fingers are tired. I’ve been doing, yeah.

And so you want to make sure that they understand, but then you’re robbing yourself of the opportunity to find it if they understand. Yeah. You know.

I think it’s such a healthy exercise. And I, and it reminded me of, it reminded me so much because I hadn’t done it in such a long time. It reminded me so much of theatre school of just like, you know, being there in class and just seeing what everyone else is, how they view your work.

Sure. Just, you’ve been sort of like, it’s been in your head for so long, but yeah, it was, it was fantastic. It’s such an interesting experience to, to, to give things to other people and just find out how they interpret it.

And, you know, things can be so very different, but still come out the same way. You know, like one of those fascinating things that the way the human mind works, um, in this current project, and it’s called again, I’m sorry. Inch of your life.

Inch of your life. Yeah. So this has been through a couple of iterations.

Yeah. I was workshopped in Toronto and this is our timeline. It was workshopped in Toronto, in Kensington many moons ago.

And then it received like it’s U S debut at Edgemore. Um, and we sort of called the fringe, it’s kind of debut. Um, but this is sort of like the big, this is now the final sort of we’re doing it now, but yeah.

Was what was done at Edgemore much different from what was done at the fringe? Yeah. Uh, here’s the thing. The one that was done at Edgemore was the fringe one was very similar to that, but after, after not doing it for so many years and seeing it again at the fringe, I’m like, uh, went back to the drawing board, kind of like revamped everything.

And now it’s sort of like, it’s changed a lot. Is that lesson of like, Oh, I’m not the person that I was when I wrote that. Yeah.

I mean, the thing is, it’s still kind of the most personal thing I’ve ever written, but it just, it didn’t, it didn’t, it didn’t speak to me the way it once did. The, the kernels were there. And what I wanted to say was there, the ideas were there, but I’m like, they weren’t flushed out as much as I had wanted them to be flushed out.

And it was a different show then. Whereas now I, it’s just, it’s, it’s sort of, it’s grown and it’s sort of, it’s evolved and I, it’s, I think it’s strongest now. I feel happy about it now.

Sure. Yeah. So, okay.

First off, I need to, I need to back up. Cause you, you had something that was like performed in the States. Yeah.

Um, how, how was that? It was, it was, you know, this Canadian kid from Woodbridge. Yeah. It was, it was very strange.

Did you go down? Yeah. I directed the show there and, um, it was, uh, it was, uh, the way, the way it worked is a, a, a friend of a friend who was in the show had seen it and we had talked about working on something together and then she had, uh, gotten her green card. She was an actor and she was going over there, but she was part of this theatre group at Edgemore.

Um, and they have this thing called the lab series where they, they, you know, people can, young companies or young writers can pitch shows. And, uh, one of the stipulations is you have to sort of cast within the company that they have. So, you know, uh, my colleague was like this, let’s pitch this, let’s do it.

And so I was like, Oh, okay. They didn’t know me from a hole in the wall. So I’m like, sure, why not? What have I got to lose? So we pitched it, we did a reading of it and they voted and they voted the show in, which was great.

Um, and it was great because they gave us this, like, it’s, you know, the, the, the full studio theatre, like, you know, full performance, all that kind of stuff. And they, they, it was the first time I actually saw it as a play kind of thing. Yeah.

Um, the funny thing about it is that there are some, uh, I mean, it does deal with some Italian characters and Italian Canadians are very different than Italian American. So the minute we had auditions, I remember we, you know, all the, the, especially the, the Italian characters are male and female. Uh, whereas here you don’t have any kind of accent.

There is sort of like a downtown or a Woodbridge accent. Whereas over there, they start talking like this because automatically Italian American is like Brooklyn, Staten Island. And I’m like, Whoa, this changed.

It changed everything. It has such a different tone to it, um, which was really, really neat to see. But, uh, the thing is we did two episodes and then the, sort of the lab series kind of like petered out.

So we never finished. So that’s why this has sort of been this like long standing. So that’s why I was sort of like, we’re doing it now as a trilogy.

When it went to the States, uh, the, the producer who, my friend who had brought it over, uh, she said, instead of doing it as this long running serial, let’s do it as a beginning, middle end, three parts trilogy. So it’s a whole, but three parts. Sure.

And I’m like, I like that structure. Yeah. So that’s what it has become.

Right. Yeah. Still keep it still being very sitcom-y and that kind of idea in terms of its structure, its pace.

But, um, now instead of it just being this long running continual, uh, cause the, the whole intention was that we kept, we would keep doing it. It’s hard to get people to commit to that. Well, I mean, the thing is that’s, that was the thing.

And it’s also hard to get an audience to commit to that. You’re telling me? Yeah. Yeah.

Um, we, like, it’s different. Yes. In the, the, the keeping the cast intact was the big thing, especially with actors, you know, it’s like we weren’t able to pay anybody much.

So the minute they got a gig, I don’t blame them. They’d have to go off and, you know, they got to do. Um, so, but this time when we actually had the auditions and we finally decided to do this, we, we made it very clear, like, we’d like to keep the cast intact for all three, just for cohesion and just for, you know.

Um, and so, yeah, it’s, it’s quite exciting to know that it’s finally going to come to fruition after like so many years. Yeah. What’s the, I mean, is the, the, because you’d put in a couple of months between it being like a weekly thing.

Yeah. Are you hoping that that becomes, makes it an event that an audience is more likely to, uh, seek out? Um. Like, cause you know, if you, if you’ve missed the first one, how would you say that? That’s actually, that’s, yeah, the thing is each, well, there is, there is a built-in recap.

Okay. So each one, but the thing, the whole thing is that each one should be able to stand on its own, but as part of the whole structure of it, there is a, um, a recap that the actors perform just so you’re, you’re caught up in the original incarnation. We actually had the recaps printed in the program, so you knew exactly what was going on.

Sure. Um, also in the original incarnation, we had guest spots, so we had new characters coming in very much like a television show. Yeah.

The whole idea behind it was like, you know, if this ever takes off, we can have like Toronto Notables be guest stars. Um, but as, as the show sort of, you know, became what it is now, we decided that this initial trilogy is just going to be the eight characters playing everybody that they need to play. And then should we ever do more, then we’ll sort of like broaden the scope and bring in other people.

Cause it is fun to sort of have that recurring cast and then you have those guest spots. Sure. You know, I’m doing air quotes too.

Okay. I wish you could all see this. Yeah.

We see the air quotes. There’s a lot of air quotes. There’s so many gestures going on.

Um, it’s interesting because it has a lot of potential to be an event, right? And this is what I think a lot of people are thinking about in terms of what is theatre going to be for the, for a younger audience? Like what is it that keeps it relevant? And it’s not the classics. It’s like, how do you make this an event? Well, that, I mean, when I first came up with it, or like, I mean, I’m not the first one to do episodic theatre. Like that’s, you know what I mean? Everyone does it.

But for me, I did it because I just want to see what the challenge would be like to sort of, you know, we’re, we’re up against, there’s so much entertainment at our fingertips, like in the advent of like Netflix and Crave TV and all that stuff. Like, why do you have to leave home? You know what I mean? Well, that’s the thing is you have to give, you have to give the audience something they can’t get. Yeah.

From Netflix. You know? So, but, but borrowing from things that, you know, do work like the sitcom structure, the comedy, you know, the ensemble cast, the fast pace. I’m like, how do we get all this and make it and put that on a stage? So the play is very stripped down, you know, and it’s, it’s very, very simple.

It really is just actors and dialogue and a few hand props. It’s very, very, this is it, you know? Yeah. And, and the response has always been very, very warm and people have enjoyed it.

And there’s a bit of a, you know, cliffhanger at each one. So that’s, you know, we kind of want to, we want to, yeah, we want to take you back. Yeah.

But yeah, so we’re, I’m very curious to see what happens, you know? This is, I think the first time we’re doing it on this scale in Toronto where it’s like, there’s been a lot of promotion behind it. We’re very excited. The actors are really excited.

I’m, I’m excited because I’m finally going to get to see it, you know? But yeah, it’s, it’s I’ve, I’ve been really lucky because everyone who’s ever worked on it has been fantastic. So I, yeah, it has gone through many, many, many, many changes to get to here. One of the things I always love about theatre is how, you know, you can have a stripped down version.

We just have a couple of chairs, props, and it will still work because you don’t need like a full set. Yeah. Well, I mean, I worked at, I did Tony and Tina’s Wedding for a number of years and this was back when they were at, on Blue Jays Way.

And Tony and Tina’s was housed in, you know, the, the second city building. So we had access to, we got comps to the shows. Yeah.

And I was always really taken with how they did stuff with just a couple of chairs and a couple of props and the fast pace. So I also brought elements from that idea. So it is a play, but it’s very stripped down and very like, it’s the chairs become everything else.

I love that. And for me, I love playing with that theatrical device where it’s like, this glass is a glass, but then it becomes something completely different. And we believe that.

That’s what I wanted it to be. I want it to be like about the words and the actors, but it’s just, we play with all that theatrical device. And, you know, there’s, there’s other surprises too.

I don’t want to say it all, you know, like come see it, of course, but, but yeah, like it’s, it, I don’t know. It’s, it’s, I think it’s, it’s, I think it’s a unique experience. Well, that’s great.

Yeah. Massimo, thank you so much. Oh my God.

Thank you. This has been great.